Unofficial Transcript - Excerpted
Washington State Attorney General Rob McKenna’s Interview
with Radio Host Steve Scher
on KUOW 94.9FM’s
“Weekday”
June 4, 2009 at 9:00AM
Re: Gaza Letter
Transcribed below is the portion of the radio interview that relates specifically to the letter that Attorney General Rob McKenna signed, along with nine other state Attorneys General, in the spring of 2009 defending Israel’s military actions in Gaza. The original audio recording can be heard via the link on KUOW’s website at http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=17684
The program was recorded live on June 4, 2009 at 9:00AM on the show “Weekday” with radio host Steve Scher. All attempts were made to transcribe the Gaza section of the interview verbatim. However, only the Gaza portion of the interview was transcribed and thus, this document represents only an excerpt of the full interview that aired. The times listed next to each comment below are associated with the times on the “RealAudio” recording as posted on KUOW’s website. You should be able to use the times to skip forward to any specific portion of the interview you would like to listen to.
Steve Scher: 1:11 - Did you get a chance to hear any of President Obama’s speech to the Egyptians today? Did you hear it?:
McKenna: 1:16 - Cairo University. Yes I did. I saw a long excerpt from it on CNN this morning and a little bit on King 5. And you know, he’s very, very good... he knows how to reach an audience, whether it is an audience in the United States or in Egypt. And I’ll tell you that, I don’t think you know this, but I was in Egypt in the Spring of 2008 as part of trip with the Aspen Institute to Egypt, Jordan, and Israel, and the Palestinian Territories. And I was really struck by how excited every Egyptian we met was about Obama’s candidacy. It’s very powerful to see somebody who looks like you, who might be the President of the United States. And I noticed how many standing ovations he received, at least from people the camera was on, on the CNN coverage today.
Steve Scher: 2:01 - I hear people saying well that’s fine to give a speech but we want to see changes in policies. Did you hear anything in the speech that indicates policy shifts?
McKenna: 2:13 - I only heard excerpts. What I heard didn’t indicate policy shifts, because what they were focusing on in the excerpts that they ran on the news were, you know, the more empathetic statements, the bridge building, common ground building statements. But I didn’t hear any reports from news anchors that he indicated any significant policy shift and I don’t think you’d expect that in that kind of speech. I don’t think he intended it to be a major policy speech. I think it was much more about outreach and empathy and building common ground.
Steve Scher: 2:40 - Ok, why am I asking the Washington State Attorney General about Foreign Affairs? Attorneys Generals from ten states defended Israel’s military actions in the Gaza Strip in a letter sent to U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton. The letter sent last month, this is a May 6 press release, also condemned Hamas for what it called war crimes for its bomb attacks on civilian targets in southern Israel. Why are you, Rob McKenna, Washington State Attorney General even signing a letter, getting involved in foreign policy?
McKenna: 3:10 - It’s a rarity, I doubt it will happen again. This is, I think, fairly extraordinary. The background on it is that the Democratic Attorney General of Rhode Island, who is the President of our National Association of Attorneys General, and the Republican Attorney General of Nebraska issued this letter, asked their colleagues to sign on to it. They had been to Israel with the American Israel Friendship League. I have not been to Israel as a guest of Israel or as any of its support groups. But I did go there with the Aspen Institute and I’ve been to the West Bank. I’ve been in Ramallah. I’ve met with the Foreign Minister for the Palestinian Authority. Visited with Israeli leaders. Been in Jordan and Egypt. And I frankly felt that Israel didn’t have to put up with 388 rockets being fired into Israel without trying to stop it. Now here is an interesting result of all of that. I’ve received lots of contacts from people who believe that I was unfair to the Palestinians, including Rachel Corrie’s parents. So I’m meeting with them, Rachel Corrie’s parents and some others next month. And I’m very happy to hear them out, and listen to them, and learn from them, just as I was happy to meet with Palestinian leaders in Ramallah. But, we’ll continue the conversation as a result of that. I felt as a matter of international law Israel was entitled to stop the rocket attacks on them. But what was interesting about that, the fact that I am going to meet with Rachel Corrie’s parents, is that I asked the Attorney General of Rhode Island and the Attorney General of Nebraska and others that signed it, I said gosh are you gettin’ a lot of calls from people who are really upset with you. And they said “no”
Steve Scher: Really.
McKenna: So we have a very active group of citizens in our state who pay a lot of attention to these issues and are really activated on them and apparently I’m the only AG who is being contacted at this point.
Steve Scher: 5:04 – Well, that’s fascinating. I mean once you open up the can of worms that is International Law don’t we have to look at Israel’s actions in terms of international law?
McKenna: 5:12 - Sure. Absolutely. You bet. And this letter was focused on whether as a matter of International Law we believe it was legal for Israel to defend itself, to stop the rocket attacks by going into Gaza and of course then withdrawing.
Steve Scher: 5:26 - It was pretty loaded though. Condemned Hamas for what it called war crimes for its bomb attacks on civilian targets in southern Israel.
McKenna 5:31 – Yeah, I think that bombing civilians with random rocket fire falls into that category.
Steve Scher: 5:38 – Yeah, but bombing civilians with random rocket fire could also be a charge leveled against Israel in its fight in the Gaza.
McKenna: 5: 45 - Yeah, when you’re in a war there are going to be civilians who are harmed once the war starts. Just as there are civilian casualties occurring in Afghanistan and Pakistan today caused by both sides. But that’s after the war starts. Look, here is what I believe after visiting Israel and the Palestinian territories. I believe that Israel has to stop building settlements on the West Bank. I think they need to withdraw from some of those settlements. And that you cannot have peace if you have people on both sides, whether it is Hamas or settlement extremists, who are determined not to let peace take root. I think you have to have a two state solution. And none of this is original or novel. Secretary of State Rice was saying the same thing. Secretary of State Clinton is saying the same thing.. is saying that now. You have to have a two state solution but you can only have a two state solution if both sides stop taking actions at the extremes that undermine that peace.
Steve Scher: 6:41 – Alright, well, and here are some people that have a reaction to that. A few quick reactions to that. Okay?
McKenna: Sure
Steve Scher: Sherams (?sp) in Snoqualmie. Hi Sherams.
Caller: Hi there.
Steve Scher: Thanks for calling. And I didn’t even ask for calls yet, but that’s good. Go.
Caller: 6:54 - Ok, I wanted to know whether you signed the letter as a representative of Washington State, if so, what gave you the mandate to sign it? If you signed it as a private individual, did that letter go in on the letterhead of the Washington State? And if so, I want you to justify that. And finally, I want you to say, you clearly said it was ok in war to have collateral damage and it is ok for Israel to kill civilians on the Palestinian side. Did you write a letter to the Secretary of State condemning the action of Israel killing civilians on the Palestinian side?
McKenna: It’s look
Caller: Its clearly one sided. And I don’t think you stopped to think in this matter.
McKenna: 7:28 – Look, in my opinion, it is entirely disingenuous for Hamas to point to civilian casualties when they put their own military facilities in among the civilian population and appear to use civilians for human shields, number one. Number two, no, we didn’t send the letter in on Washington State Attorney General letter head. I put my signature on it, my title was on it which I’m entitled to use when I take a stand on an issue. But I sent it in as a lawyer, who happens to be the attorney general, who believes that our legal analysis is correct. It was not an opinion of my office but rather was a position I took as an individual.
Steve Scher: That our legal analysis was correct, can you expand on that.
McKenna: 8: 06 - Yeah. Well, the lawyers who wrote the letter, working with the Attorney General from Rhode Island and Nebraska did the analysis and I think it was the correct analysis. But your caller makes a very fair question and I want to be clear that I signed it as an individual, not as a representative of the State of Washington.
Steve Scher: Sheram, your response.
Caller: 8:28 - Yes, one, can you justify what analysis was done and could you also justify how you came by saying that you would sign a letter that would condemn the actions of Hamas because of civilian casualties on the Israeli side, but not on the reverse?
McKenna: 8:46 - Look, I don’t agree with what Hamas is doing. So, I have no sympathy for Hamas’ leader. I think that they are taking actions which are resulting in the impoverishment and deaths of their own people. I think the Palestinian leaders in the West Bank, who certainly are no angels themselves, are working in better faith to achieving a two state solution and I don’t think its credible to say that Hamas wants peace when they seem to do everything they can to undermine the potential for peace. The legal analysis is a straightforward analysis of International Law based on the facts of Hamas breaking the truce that was entered into by Israel and Hamas when Hamas [sic] withdrew from Gaza and gave up its outposts there. So that is the legal analysis in the letter, I think it’s correct. It is a narrow analysis focused on the question of whether or not one country is allowed to defend itself when it is being attacked from another country and I think that analysis is correct as a matter of international law.
Steve Scher: Ok. Sheram thanks. Two more and then we’ll move on. Bert’s in north Seattle.
Caller: 9:50 - Yes, hello thank you Steve. I have the letter that Attorney General McKenna sent to Hillary Clinton in front of me. That his office sent to me. At the head of that letter it says, quote... “a communication from the chief legal officers from the states of Colorado, Florida, Kentucky, etc.... Washington”. So I think it’s disingenuous for Attorney General McKenna to say even though he put Attorney of the State of Washington at the bottom of the letter, that this doesn’t imply to Hillary Clinton that this is a statement coming from, as it says at the top, a communication from the chief legal officers of these states.
McKenna: 10:28 - Well, it correctly identifies us by our role. But of course we don’t have jurisdiction here. I think Hillary Clinton is sophisticated enough to understand that. She was after all married to the Attorney General of Arkansas and still is. So, I understand what you are saying, but we were not attempting to create a position for our states but rather were taking a position just as elected officials take positions on other current affairs. So, again, I will say for the record, we were not, I certainly was not, representing a legal position of the state because our office would not take a position on that question as an office.
Steve Scher: 11:01 – Bert you had a statement about humanitarian aid.
Caller: 11:04 – If I could get back, I sent your office a letter, and I spoke to Mike Bigelow, your chief of staff, just a week ago about it and I have not received an answer, my question is this Mr. McKenna, I’m not raising the issue that has been raised up to now. I’m raising the issue of if you are going to speak about the legal and international law implications of the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, why have you not spoken about the denial of humanitarian aid, food, medicine, water, essentials for the Palestinian people, and my point, that I make in the letter is that I have not received a....
Steve Scher: Let me get, let me... alright, make it quick Bert.
Caller: Let me finish my statement and then you can please go ahead... which is I’m not asking did Israel allow some humanitarian aid into Iraq [sic], I’m asking according to International Law, what basis is there for denying civilians any amount of humanitarian aid, using food as a weapon essentially.
Steve Scher: 12: 06 - Into the Gaza. A legal question.
McKenna: 12:08 - Well, first of all Bert you’ll receive an answer, we have received a number of communications and are putting together a response so that we can answer them all at once. So, you will hear back. And as you already pointed out, my Chief of Staff did talk o you and took your call, and that’s great. I’m looking forward to my meeting next month with the folks I’m meeting with as well. Regarding the use of food as a weapon. I think that is a loaded statement that the pro-Palestinian side uses when the Pro-Israeli side will point out that Hamas is using ambulances, food shipments, and other means to smuggle rockets and other weapons of war into the Gaza Strip, which they then use to break the truce. So, as you well know, and as I know, there are two sides to that story.
Steve Scher: 12:49 – Two illegalities don’t make a legality?
McKenna: 12:51 - Well, I think you’re allowed to defend yourself. Which means if you stop shipments that contain weapons, you’re stopping the shipments to stop the weapons. That’s the argument.
Steve Scher: Alright. We’ll finish that after the break. This is Weekday.
RETURN FROM BREAK at 14:00
Steve Scher: 14:10 - Rob McKenna along with other Attorneys General from nine states signed a letter defending Israel’s military actions in the Gaza Strip. Got a few reactions to that letter. I want to get you to finish the comment and get one more call in, and then we’ll move on from that. Bert’s point was that Israel is being charge with withholding humanitarian aid. Israel has made their arguments and as you said, Hamas is charged with using ambulances and other humanitarian trucks to get weapons into the country. But the fact that Hamas has done something illegal, doesn’t justify, and as you said they [Israel] have a right to defend themselves. But does it justify, if they’re cutting off humanitarian aid, is that against International Law?
McKenna: 15:00 - I think that is a question of fact and it should be weighed in international courts and by international bodies. The question will probably come down to whether or not it was reasonable for them to interdict humanitarian aid in order to stop weapons from being shipped in, as opposed to interdicting international aid just to cause harm to the civilian population. That is the question of fact. And I’ll be interested to see how those facts come out. Let both sides present and let’s do so in the appropriate bodies.
Steve Scher: 15:26 - Alright, so when that happens what’s your response?
McKenna: Well let’s see what the outcome is.
Steve Scher: Well, either way, would you have a response?
McKenna: 15:34 - Yeah, possibly, I mean I would talk to the other Attorneys Generals to see what they think. But, unlike some of the callers, I’m not prejudging the outcome of that particular inquiry. Lets see where that inquiry leads and whether or not Israel provides the evidence that they say they have that they had to stop some shipments in order to stop weapons.
Steve Scher: 15:51 - Will you in your travels to Latin America or Asia be signing other letters on foreign policy that go to Hillary Clinton or another Secretary of State?
McKenna: 16:08 – Its hard to imagine that we would come across an issue this pointed and in the midst of the kind of crisis that emerged in Gaza that we saw earlier this year. So, I think it’s unlikely. And, the letter wasn’t my idea. The Republican and Democratic Attorneys General who came up with it asked some of us to sign it. So, you know, I felt enough about it that I would sign it. But this is not a main focus area for me, you know I have a lot of other things to do.
Steve Scher: 16: 40 - What value does it have? What value does it offer to the world?
McKenna: 16:41 – Sometimes elected officials need to stand up and talk about issues that are not strictly within their main course of work. And I think that is why my colleagues drafted the letter and why a bunch of us signed on to it. In my case, because I had some personal experience with the region and some experience with the issues. So, again, this isn’t something that is going to happen very often, if ever again. But it was important at the time and I think our analysis was correct.
Steve Scher: 17:08 - Alright, one last comment on that. Jeff’s in Ballard. Hi, Jeff.
Caller: Hi.
Steve Scher: Go ahead.
Caller: 17:16 - Well, my concern was, and he just touched on it again, he made this comment as a citizen, he signed on not as an official Washington representative but just as a citizen. But I mean now that it has been done, how much has his staff time and resources and writing responses to all the controversial reaction to this, like how much time is this taking up now? I mean this is taking up time that should just be spent on, you know, doing your job. And now...
Steve Scher: State resources being used now to deal with this issue and in the initial were state resources used?
McKenna: 17:57 - Yeah, sure. Well, initially it was just a matter of getting the letter into my hands so I could review it and think about it. That was all. Now, people have questions about the issue, they want to meet with me, so sure, there are some resources being expended. But it’s not a huge part of what we are doing right now.
Steve Scher: Alright, well let’s leave it with the question of dialog. You are meeting with Rachel Corrie’s parents?
McKenna Yeah.
Steve Scher: Other people, others from the Palestinian side asked to meet with you, will you meet with some of them?
McKenna:Yeah. Yeah, I am. I’m meeting with a group of them next month. And I look forward to it.
Steve Scher: Jeff, thanks for your call.
THAT ENDS THE SECTION OF THE INTERVIEW RELATED TO THE GAZA LETTER.
IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THIS SECTION WERE SEVERAL QUESTIONS ABOUT RANDY PEPPLE, THE INDIVIDUAL NEWLY APPOINTED TO FILL THE ROLE OF MCKENNA’S CHIEF OF STAFF AT THE AG’S OFFICE..... AND WHETHER OR NOT THIS APPOINTMENT SIGNALS MCKENNA’S RUN FOR THE WA GOVERNOR’S OFFICE IN 2012. MCKENNA DENIED THIS WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE APPOINTMENT. MCKENNA NEITHER CONFIRMED NOR DENIED WHETHER OR NOT HE WILL RUN FOR GOVERNOR IN THE FUTURE AND INSTEAD SPOKE TO THE FACT THAT HE IS CURRENTLY THE AG AND IS FOCUSED ON THAT.
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